I believe the F-14 will make a come back not flying missions in the Gulf but in Airshows, any one else think so?

I would love to see Snort flying one since he already has!

Not likley, but maybe slightly possible.

Unless Iran does something with theirs

with all the fuss made over destroying the airframes i cant imagine that someone would be able to do so. despite the many museum birds around, i dont think the parts exist to allow this to happen...sadly. i loved that big ol' thing.

trust me, the operational cost is staggering , it will never happen.

^^ what he said

It will never happen unfortunately. Remember, it took a proverbial act of god for the Collings Foundation to obtain and be able to fly an F-4 around. Now look at how much trouble they have/are having just keeping it up in the air.

The "Turkey" is as dead as all the ones we just demolished last Thursday unfortunately.

There's still leftovers here!!!!

How many times are we going to beat this dead horse?

There is no horse too dead to beat.

Very, very true....

the Collings foundation cant even put their F-4 in the air. They charge 10,000 dollars for a 30 min flight..... And that is a foundation. There is no way a private owner would ever be able to afford the flight hour cost the tomcat requires. I'm serious the phantoms cost is nothing in comparison. tomcat maintenence hour per flight hour was almost 22/1 when they were decommed. that combined with operational cost per hour is an almost unimaginable number.

The collings foundation F-4 has been flying since 1999 or 2000. It just recently went down with the engine loss. But its flying again, that engine was the first time since theyve had it that its been down for awhile. Congress had to give them permission to retrieve it from AMAARC and restore it. Yes they charge a lot for a flight, but dang, how often can you say you have a chance to fly in a F-4? Id rather pay for a ride in that then waste the 10000 in the World Series of Poker Main Event.

Oh please dont get me wrong ,I'm not saying they are over charging. I am just trying to put the cost of a Tomcat in perspective.

Oh i wasnt lol, im not a tomcat fan(OMG STOP THE PRESSES, A NON TOMCAT FAN!!!!).

You're not a Tomcat fan because every airplane that you've ever been a fan of has had the snot beat out of it by the Tomcat.

hahaha...the skyraider got beat by a tomcat??

While I generally agree with your conclusion, your logic is flawed. We have MANY billionaires in America, so money is NOT a problem. Red tape is. An oil corporation or software giant (Larry Ellision, Paul Allen) could do it and not even notice it on their "bottom line".

TV game shows give away multimillions at a time now.
Rich

Interesting discussion.

Here at Western Michigan University, we have a historic campus known as "East Campus." Many of the original buildings (historical landmarks, etc.) still stand and will be requiring maintenance to keep them standing much longer. What caught my eye when I was walking around the old campus a few days ago was a sign in one of the windows that read "Save East Hall-The Money Is Not the Problem. It's the Vision!"

I think that that is a slogan befitting of what we are seeing with more and more warbirds (props and jets), which is really too bad.

Hey, you guys and gals ever notice that the teams and civilians which fly jet powered ex military aircraft obtain them from countries which aren't American? The Migs, the Starfighters, the T-33's, the many Sabres, and even a civillian owned and completely flyable Vampire are all foreign made and produced.

Up here in Canada, there are no civilian owned, flying CF-5's, T-33's, Starfighters, or Sabres. There's a reason that Americans come up here to buy their planes, and why several Canadians are trying to get their planes down to the States to register them.

It is because both the US and Canada have a law that says no jet powered former military aircraft can be registered and flown in the country of its origin, or something to that effect, unless they are granted special provision by the DND.

So while there might be the money (although it would take a tonne of it), unless the laws are going to change, then there aren't going to be any civillian owned jet powered former air force planes under ownership in the USA and Canada.

Maybe ASB could start a petition to have Congress change the law in place...just a thought.

Cheers!

thats not exactly correct. there is a current registered T-2 buckeye flying privately . there are several ex US trainers and fighters flying currently today. There are also private a-4 skyhawks. you cannot buy any military fighters decommed after a certian date, I cant remember the date but its sorta recent. I dont believe you can buy or register any aircraft in the bone yards that are slated for future reactivation pending a world war.

Here's what my contact in the Heritage Flight in Canada wrote me back when I asked him, and I'm sorry I jumped the gun and was presumptious after speaking to an owner of a DHC Vampire that is in flying condition.



If it is true up here and in the US, I'd hate to see a military jet flying with sponsors names all over it and not in its traditional colours...anyone else?

Bandit

While we'd all prefer to see ex-military aircraft flying in their original colors, in many cases it is a coice of seeing them in sponsors 'markings' or not at all.

For example, for the past several years Red Bull has sponsored the only flying Sea Vixen in the world (in the UK) it flew, not in it's original RN scheme, but as a flying billboard. Today the sponsorship deal is gone, the aircraft is back in military markings, and sadly may or may not fly again.

It costs a hideous amount of money to keep many of these aircraft safely airworthy. We now have a situation where there is a civil Sea Harrier flying, I'd love to see it flying in a military scheme (although it wasn't strictly a military aircraft) but if XXXXX Inc. makes an offer to provide the owner with "bucketfulls" of $$$, realistically who would - or could - turn them down?

Most, if not all, ex-military aircraft that fly at airshows don't make money. Probably relatively few, if any, even break even. It's not the appearence fees, it's the sponsorship dollars - and the wallets of their owners - that keep them flying.

Mike Kopack

I dont honestly think modern day fighters can be sustained in private ownership guys. I am 100% serious when I say the upkeep and flight hour cost of these aircraft will blow your mind. Watching Sean Tuckers video log book, he stated that Oracle sent him a million dollar check. That wouldnt even come close to covering an F-14's airshow season, not by a long shot.

I think when the viper becomes obsolete you will see it....its low cost low maintence(low maintence compared to others) will make it a very acheivable bird to obtain..especially since there are so many of them.

Based on what?

While I wouldn't mind seeing it, I have a difficult time seeing how it will happen. If a Viper is low cost / low maintenance you must be grading on a curve based on a Tomcat - in many cases the F-16 is MORE, and not less complex than the old Cat.

Have a flight control problem with your Tomcat? It is likely going to come down to cables and hydraulics - things that I could probably repair with the tools I have here in the house (I'm an aircraft mechanic, I have a lot of tools) - while the same issue with a Viper is just as likely to end up with a flight control computer replacement - each of which costs roughly the same as Ed Shipley's restored Sabre (yeah, the whole thing , fueled and ready to fly) and there are not a lot of places that have the millions and millions of dollars of specialized equipment to repair them (and those that do, I would bet that the DOD and State Department would assure that it would be difficult, at best, to get the work done.)

The same goes for everything from engines to JFS's, to Phased Inspections to support equipment - and I'm not even going to mention what it would take to get an aircraft with a hydrazine powered EPU to legally fly as a civilian aircraft. The oldest Vipers, my old 78-80 Fiscal Year aircraft, had over 16 miles of wiring packed into their 49'+ lengths, and they were simple when compared to the Blk 30 C's, and even more so when compared to today's.

Just want to burn fuel? The Viper will be happy to, an A will carry just under 1100 gallons (7290 pounds) internal (at roughly $5 per gallon). A demo will literally empty an aircraft during a 15 minute flight, and you want your Demo pilot to have a LOT of stick time. A Blk. 30 with a GE will easily see the topside of 32,000 pounds per hour in AB on the ground during a maintenance run, and up to nearly double that in flight - 50,000 pph equals a hundred-twenty gallons a minute or two gallons a second.

Yes, I wouldn't mind seeing a civilian Viper, and if someone were to open up the boneyard at DM and give you whatever you wanted, it probably could happen, but my money says it wont.

Mike
Ex-Viper A/B/C/D P&W and GE Crew Chief

the falcons maintenence cost per flight hour is much less than the tomcat was but is still not going to make it into civilian hands for private demo teams. the falcon uses the same engine as the tomcat. its big, complex, and guzzles gas faster than you can fill it. the older ones are not so much complex as they are old, and in need of more replacement parts.

The tomcat uses hydrolics and pushrods for its FCS. but uses computers to control automatic sweeping of the wings among other things.

I am a hornet mechanic so I can put some cost in perspective for you.
engines are 1.2 mil a piece and are replaced every 1000 hours. the AMAD(airframe mounted accessory drive) which drives the secondary systems is made by rolls royce and if I remember are about 680k a piece , the jet needs 2.

The multiple FCC's, INS's and other electronic boxes the aircraft uses are multiple millions to replace and they go out all the time. good thing redundancy is built in....

The fuel systems are so complex it takes an expert time of about 5 guys up to a month to remove certian fuel cells. and are hundreds of thousands each, and leak all the time. they have a zero leak limit so 1 drop a day , you have to spend upwards of 500,000 to change it.

The aircraft goes through 10,30,50,100,200,250,300,500,1000 hour inspections on every system, monthly phase inspections, MOD inspection and overhauls. daily and turn around inspections every flight ,14 day cleaning inspections etc etc etc.

Finding enough qualified personel to actually work on a private hornet tomcat or viper would be a feat in its self. It takes a squadron of 200 to maintain a fleed of 10 fighters and work can pile up .

Now if you were to fly this aircraft 1 hour a month then it might not be too bad. but that is nowhere near the amount you need to fly just to stay current. thats not practicing flybys, heritage flights and airshow routines.

I would estimate JP-5 is about 4 bucks a gal now....the hornet holds 12,600(12.6) fuel load. if I did my math right thats almost 9,000 in gas alone which lasts an average mission an hour. thats not factoring daily and turnaround inspections where you service the engine and hydrolic systems. then you hope to god you have no gripes lol.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0119.shtml

HEY FOLKS,
Check out this site,it may answer some questios on the F-14

i dont need all the technical mumbo jumbo, im just saying that if they were to open the boneyard to current military aircraft it would be the cheapest(out of fighters) to restore.

Technical 'mumbo-jumbo'? Is that a technical term? I've done a bit of work with a couple of guys who fly and maintain some pretty high performance jet warbirds today, I don't think I've ever heard any of them say that they weren't worried about the 'technical mumbo jumbo'.

Call it what you will, but these are simply the reasons that it ain't gonna happen. We shot down a satellite a couple of weeks ago because of the hazard of the hydrazine fuel - do you seriously consider it a possibility that the DOD or FAA will allow a civilian acft to fly with exact same H-70 onboard?

Mike

Technical mumbo jumbo = reality.

Ok if we really want to get technical, wait until belgium or the netherlands retire their vipers and put out on the market like most european jets. Sweedish Viggens, RAF Sea harriers have been availible. The collings foundation bought a Viggen and we all know about Art Sea harrier. If a sea harrier can fly as a warbird, im damn sure a viper will.

Anyone who wants to own and fly one of the advanced fighters will just have to find a way to deal with all of the technical and monetary issues that have been brought up here by those with experience servicing the aircraft. It's not impossible, but it is daunting.

Aircraft like the Viggen and the Harrier were 1960's vintage. Think of the construction methods and materials used then and compare that to the methods and materials used now.

For example, the F-14's horizontal stabilizers were made of boron composite. Any ideas where to find that stuff now-a-days to fix up your horizontal stab when it needs replacing?

I personally think you should never say never. Sure, it may be impossible with today's technology to restore and maintain an F-14 or F-16, but in 15 or 20 years when civil technology becomes more advanced and the F-14's technology becomes more ancient, who knows? People said 'it's never gonna happen' to the idea of flight once upon a time.